Rona Voting

[comahan]

Originally Posted by D-Unit

That sounds like a good defense for Harden, but it's not true. I appreciate the fan in you, but that's a really arrogant defense. ....he is only ball dominant because no one on earth is as good as he is? C'mon, even you passed on him in the draft.

Either way, I didn't knock his team because he had Harden. I knocked for how he surrounded Harden.

I mean its legitimate facts, no one has ever had the points per possession that he has in isolation. My argument is that they put him in ISO rather than run a Spurs style motion offense because Harden in ISO nets more points per possession than anything in the league. Factually, his ORTG on Iso's blows the alltime record away. Im not arguing that hes the greatest player, just that theres a reason they run ISO through him constantly--its not because hes a selfish player, its because its statistically the best offense they have. He can still easily fit in a multi star or allstar team type situation. That was what my post was about.

[fenikz]

I think people need to watch a Rockets game that their team is not playing in. When it's your team you just get mad at him for taking advantage of the system

[OSUGiants]

Commie and Fenikz have convinced me. I’m changing my vote to Brodie

[scottyboy]

Idk, by most of this logic, Harden is a cheat code and is unstoppable and we shouldn't even vote because Brodie wins.

Listen, Harden is probably the most talented offensive player rn (because Durant is hurt) and he is borderline unstoppable. D's argument didn't make much sense, and commie is correct with his post this page. That being said, I think if anyone has the team to stop him, its Kyle. He's got a plethora of great perimeter defenders to throw at Harden.

The key thing with that, is Kyle then has a lot of ball handlers to take the pressure off whoever is guarding Harden, whether it be Jrue, Dajonte, Simmons or even Kawhi. His overall versatility is really good. I think he's hard to beat, period.

[TACKS]

This was really close. Over the course of an 82 game schedule I'd expect Brodie's team to have a better record but in a playoff series Kyle's team with the combination of resilient scorers, physicality, and elite defense just makes his team a super tough out in a series. Kyle's team has the clear edge defensively, especially going against a perimeter orientated team, and Brodie's team might have a bit of an offensive edge but I'm not sure it's significant enough against Kyle's D in a playoff setting. Again, it was close I think Brodie's team might've been better served leaning even more into Harden-ball instead of hedging with a few of his key pieces (the bigs in particular).

vote: Kyle

[TACKS]

Kyle: 4

Brodie: 3

[Brodie]

Why is there some belief my defenders can't match-up with his or I don't have the ballhandlers? 4 of my starting 5 are good to great defenders (Nurkic was borderline All Defense before he broke his leg last year, just look at Portland with him vs without him on D), and Smart/Lowry can consistently defend above their weight for my final 5. Duncan Robinson/Barton can't particularly defend but neither can Bertans/Gallo so it's a wash anyways. Dejounte is kind of overrated as a defender at this point as he hasn't shown to make a difference on that end in a while.

As for ballhandlers, I really don't see how there's an advantage starting or final 5 or bench. He can put Simmons/Kawhi inside but his full blown bigs aren't exactly noteworthy passers and Nurkic/Sabonis are in another league than either of them. Harden/Lowry are both great ballhandlers and Smart/Middleton/PG13/Barton are all damn good secondary ballhandlers to go along with the two bigs I have that can pass.

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by scottyboy

That being said, I think if anyone has the team to stop him, its Kyle. He's got a plethora of great perimeter defenders to throw at Harden.

.

This is where I land, if my group of defenders isn't a group that can slow him down, why would anyone be able to? Does Corey just win this whole thing on the basis of having James Harden?

[Brodie]

I think you do have the best chance to stop Harden and limit him. But say you use Kawhi/Simmons at the end to guard Harden/Paul George, then we say Jrue/Lowry more or less cancel each other out, so then it comes down to how do you defend Khris Middleton with Kyrie or Shai? We're talking a 50/40/90 dude that scores 20 PPG and plays three positions.

Solely focusing on the fact that our games would be super close (which they probably would) so I'm picking at the end lineups.

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by Brodie

I think you do have the best chance to stop Harden and limit him. But say you use Kawhi/Simmons at the end to guard Harden/Paul George, then we say Jrue/Lowry more or less cancel each other out, so then it comes down to how do you defend Khris Middleton with Kyrie or Shai? We're talking a 50/40/90 dude that scores 20 PPG and plays three positions.

Solely focusing on the fact that our games would be super close (which they probably would) so I'm picking at the end lineups.

Shai is a pretty good defender, and he's 6'5 and long. I don't buy that he's someone that Middleton would just work over.

[Brodie]

He is but Middleton has about 40-50 pounds on him. Hell Middleton did have a 51 point game when Giannis was out at one point, I'm just saying. He's an underrated factor.

[scottyboy]

well then look at the other side, how do you guard him? Even if you hide Harden on Jrue, what, Lowry against Kyrie? That's a bigger mismatch than Middleton covered by Shai, imo.

[D-Unit]

Originally Posted by OSUGiants

Commie and Fenikz have convinced me. I’m changing my vote to Brodie

You really do have no spine or mind of your own lol. Classic osu

[OSUGiants]

I’ll pray for you D

[Brodie]

Originally Posted by scottyboy

well then look at the other side, how do you guard him? Even if you hide Harden on Jrue, what, Lowry against Kyrie? That's a bigger mismatch than Middleton covered by Shai, imo.

Lowry against Kyrie is in no way that big of a mismatch. I'd also probably just rotate guys on D outside of PG13 matching up against Kawhi, since it's pretty flexible all around.

[D-Unit]

Originally Posted by comahan

I mean its legitimate facts, no one has ever had the points per possession that he has in isolation. My argument is that they put him in ISO rather than run a Spurs style motion offense because Harden in ISO nets more points per possession than anything in the league. Factually, his ORTG on Iso's blows the alltime record away. Im not arguing that hes the greatest player, just that theres a reason they run ISO through him constantly--its not because hes a selfish player, its because its statistically the best offense they have. He can still easily fit in a multi star or allstar team type situation. That was what my post was about.

I think you're overindulging yourself on the degree to which I'm saying he needs to be happy in order to be on a winning team. You took that as me saying he's a selfish player. He wouldn't average his assist rate if he was a selfish player. I'm saying he's difficult to build around because he is very ball dominant (you claim out of necessity and effectiveness)... I don't disagree, but my point is... you can't take that away from him. You can't coop up a bird once he learns to fly.

I'm sure you'd agree that he's happier as the main dog in HOU than he was as a 3rd wheel in OKC. Can he play around more stars? Sure, playing around other stars is supposed to make it easier for anyone. Why would Harden ever say anything to contradict that? But the real concern is that he's been surrounded with many alterations of lineups that have been amazing, but consistently falls short. What does he need in order to be on a championship team? That's up for all to debate.

[Brodie]

His lineup in game 7 against the Warriors two years ago that they would have won if not for a historic cold streak...

-Trevor Ariza (has been on four teams in two years since)
-PJ Tucker (a very good roleplayer but is simply that only)
-Ryan Anderson (out of the league)
-Joe Johnson (out of the league)
-Gerald Green (out of the league)
-Eric Gordon (a shittier Lou Williams at best the last three years)
-Clint Capela (virtually unplayable against a team like the Warriors)

WHAT AN AMAZING LINEUP

[D-Unit]

Originally Posted by Brodie

His lineup in game 7 against the Warriors two years ago that they would have won if not for a historic cold streak...

-Trevor Ariza (has been on four teams in two years since)
-PJ Tucker (a very good roleplayer but is simply that only)
-Ryan Anderson (out of the league)
-Joe Johnson (out of the league)
-Gerald Green (out of the league)
-Eric Gordon (a shittier Lou Williams at best the last three years)
-Clint Capela (virtually unplayable against a team like the Warriors)

WHAT AN AMAZING LINEUP

[Brodie]

My point is that like Commie, Harden can win anything here because he has never had an actual supporting cast yet has almost gotten there time and time again. The only people he "pushed out" were Dwight Howard (who has since been on a billion teams) and Chris Paul (who is still great but an asshole that can have mesh problems from time to time).

Anyways Kyle is gonna win anyways so I'm just arguing against a wall at this point so not sure why I'm bothering.

[D-Unit]

Originally Posted by Brodie

My point is that like Commie, Harden can win anything here because he has never had an actual supporting cast yet has almost gotten there time and time again. The only people he "pushed out" were Dwight Howard (who has since been on a billion teams) and Chris Paul (who is still great but an asshole that can have mesh problems from time to time).

Anyways Kyle is gonna win anyways so I'm just arguing against a wall at this point so not sure why I'm bothering.

Meh, for kicks, this is what I would've done after taking Harden/George ... an AWESOME start you had btw that was looking like brilliance...

Russell Westbrook
James Harden
Paul George
Serge Ibaka
Rudy Gobert

We know Russ gets along wtih Harden and George. I would've had no issues with this one. Ibaka is totally fine being a role player, picking up the scraps, spreading the floor and playing defense. Plus he brings the experience of winning a ring and could be a great veteran and settling voice in the lockerroom. Topping that off with Gobert at C would've been a crowning piece. When I said you needed to surround Harden with more athleticism and defense, this is what I was thinking.